Well, tonight I came across the 18 part Atheist/Christianity debate on Way Of The Master's youtube channel. I'm not sure where the heck I've been or why it has taken me this long to see that thing, apparantly it was aired on ABC back in the beginning of the year? I'm not sure, but wow. I sat there and watched clip after clip of Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort give evidence to the existance of God while Brian and Kelly (2 athiests representing the 'Rational Response Squad') denied all of it. Well not just denied it, but mocked it and pretty much just laughed in their faces. And the atheists in the audience spoke so scornfully that it literally made me sick. I can't even begin to describe the way I felt as I watched it. My whole body shuttered with every God-hating comment....half of me calling out to the Lord for righteous judgment on their prideful souls, and the other half crying out "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do!" Oh my goodness, I seriously still can't shake it. So, with this horrible feeling, I turned no where else but to the scriptures as I asked the Lord to make sense of what I was witnessing. And God's Word, as always, was very clear that this is just confirming what the Lord has already said. Here are some of the verses the Lord showed me:
Proverbs 14:12
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
1Corinthians 3:18
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile." So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future--all are yours, and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 2:6
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
1Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is folly [foolishness] to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Well, that pretty much covers it. After a little bit of searching around on youtube I found an EXCESSIVE amount of stuff posted by kids who had a HATRED for the things of God. It's like an epidemic. I seriously had to stop watching it all because I could seriously feel it start to pollute my soul. No wonder these kids give into it...it's the easy thing to do: deny anything greater than yourself and then you get to spend your life looking to yourself for answers and answering to no one. ahhhhhhhhhhh. I'm so frustrated right now. This is sick. My heart is so burdened for these blind people. When I watched the debate, I couldn't help but think about how God opened up my eyes to the things of the Spirit, and how otherwise, I would be sitting there just like them. I did nothing to 'earn' this realization of truth, I didn't just up and come to God on my own, IT WAS A GIFT.
1 Corinthians 4:7 says "For who makes you to differ from another? and what have you that you did not receive? now if you did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it?"
God makes me differ from those people who don't believe in Him. He chose me. He gave me the gift of faith so that I may be filled with His Spirit and discern spiritual things. I did nothing to deserve it...nothing at all. If anything, watching that made me ALL THE MORE thankful for my gift of salvation and ALL THE MORE humbled that the Lord elected me to be His child.
The Bible says in 2 Timothy 3:2-4 that during the end times people will be lovers of themselves:
"For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God"
Well this whole "rational response squad" is pretty much defining that for us. But then again, to them, I'm just a disillusioned Christian who has created this nonexistant religion in my mind. Everyone seems to be saying that Kirk and Ray were defeated in this debate, but I definitely would have to disagree. I mean really, what can you expect? They were trying to explain the spiritual ways of God to these unregenerated men in their natural, fallen, God-hating state. The only way for these people to come around and see the other side is by a supernatural work of God in which He removes their heart of stone and replaces it with a God-fearing and God-loving one. So in my mind, the debate was a huge success. Kirk and Ray were able to clearly present the Gospel to over 100 atheists. Because faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, seeds were planted in that room. If it is the Lord's will, then He will grow the seeds and open their eyes, and if not, they will remain ignorant. I commend Kirk and Ray for being the ones that got up there and, to the world, looked like fools for Christ. That is exactly what the Bible says we will look like, so of course thats why the hundred something atheists in that room were snearing them to their faces. As Christians we should expect nothing less.
My eyes were definitely opened up tonight to the severity of this situation. So many people are out there blaspheming the Name of God like it's something to be proud of. And as sick as it made me, it also helped me realize a lot. First of all, no matter how mad I get at these people for what they are saying against such a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS GOD, I must realize that them saying that stuff takes NOTHING away from the glory of the Lord and what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross. Nothing. They can blaspheme all day if they want, but God is still God and His goodness and holiness are not dependent on what fallen man says about Him. And for that, I am extremely grateful. There is no doubt that Satan is out there trying to use all this stuff about atheism to get Christians to question their beliefs so that they turn from Christ and live for themselves. But all it is doing is solidifying my faith in the resurrected Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh. It is just reaffirming what exactly it is the Lord has delivered me from. For it is written, "As I have heard, so I have seen"...the words of the Bible aren't just words to me...they are alive and active in me and there is no logical, realism, rational response, scientific blah blah blah that can snatch me from the Hands of God. And it is so dumb for me to even question belief in an eternal God when these people who are debating me are people who have never tasted or seen that the Lord is good....so how can I blame them for not understanding? This is where I must step back and realize that all of this is part of the greater plan of the Lord, and I am here to just be a vessel for Him and preach Christ. That's it. Feel free to call me a disillusioned dummy along the way, I'm fine with that. Your insults are just faith refiners to me. Just remember that everyone has the law of God written in their hearts, and it is that knowledge that condemns us on the day of Judgement if we don't repent and trust Jesus Christ as our Savior.
I know this post seems like a rant, but I really was affected by what I saw tonight and I had to write some stuff to get this shuttering feeling out of my bones. yikes, utter disbelief is sweeping our universe....men turning against the God that created them to worship the created. Ah yes, sounds familiar...this pretty much sums it up:
Romans 1:20-24
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions.
God certainly has given them up to the lusts of their hearts, and it's extremely sad to see. I pray for God's elect, I pray that they will hear the voice of the Shepherd in the midst of all these foolish and vain babblings of the world. The great thing is that I know God is faithful and He will keep His promise to save His people.
Here is a sermon jam that all this reminded me of. All of this is a result of pride...pride pride pride. yuck, it's oozing everywhere out of humanity.
13 comments:
Would you, perhaps, reiterate the 'evidence' of god that was provided by Kirk and Ray? Because I would really like to hear it.
To me it looked and sounded like circular reasoning and appeals to emotion...but if there was actual evidence there that I missed, please let me know.
morsecode,
But foolish and ignorant questions avoid, knowing that they do produce strifes.
(2Ti 2:23)
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
(Rom 1:18-22)
Of course, you don't believe the rest of what God says so why would you believe this 'rational response'?
So to you, it is rational to prove a book because the book says the book what the book says is true?
If that is so, then the koran has just as much validity as the bible.
Perhaps I should write a book that says anyone who doesn't believe it is ignorant and a fool?
The bible makes claims that are not supported by evidence, and that is why I don't believe it. I don't actually believe it and reject it, like your verse suggests. I don't believe it is true.
And I do not claim to be wise. I claim not to know the ultimate answers. But I also claim that neither do you.
Yes. It is completely rational to believe a historic account of Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh as told by people that were martyred because they would not deny the truth as opposed to some guy who comes on a blog and contests that truth by offering vague characterizations and goes by his username. It would be completely irrational to do otherwise.
Do you agree that the only people that are going to agree that the record of the Bible is false is you, your unbelieving friends, and every unbeliever in the world and the only people that are going to agree that it is true is me, my believing friends, and every believer scattered throughout the world?
I once believed, and then changed my mind when I realized what I believed was irrational and not based on evidence.
If being a martyr means that your belief is true, then isn't every suicide bomber who thinks he will get his heavenly reward proving Islam true?
The problem is that every argument you make for your religion's truth can be made by every other religion. And, religions being mutually exclusive, and none having actual evidence, I choose to believe none of them.
To call the bible "false" is simplifying the matter. The bible deals with some real places and some real people. It has many moral stories. It also mentions people who are not in any other historical record, and it mentions places and events that have no evidence of their existing.
I require evidence to support my beliefs. You do not, and that is your choice.
You avoided the question. I'll ask it again:
Do you agree that the only people that are going to agree that the record of the Bible is false is you, your unbelieving friends, and every unbeliever in the world and the only people that are going to agree that it is true is me, my believing friends, and every believer scattered throughout the world?
My apologies, I thought that the question was rhetorical.
I believe that the only people who are going to agree that the record of the bible is false are people who look for the historical and archaeological evidence that supports it. Because, at least at the moment, there is none. And again, calling it 'false' is far too simplistic. At least, there is no evidence to support it's claims about god or the supernatural. Certainly there are real events described and real people talked about. But the same can be said about any piece of historical fiction.
The only people who will agree that it is true are those who take it on faith, rather than evidence.
But I also think that it's not unthinkable for someone to move from one group to the other.
That's an answer, but that's not an answer to the question I asked. I did not ask you about believing 'historical and archaeological evidence'; I asked you about believing the Bible itself. A simple answer (yes or no) to the question I asked will suffice. One last time:
Do you agree that the only people that are going to agree that the record of the Bible is false is you, your unbelieving friends, and every unbeliever in the world and the only people that are going to agree that it is true is me, my believing friends, and every believer scattered throughout the world?
It's not really a yes or no question.
And I'm pretty sure I answered, but I'll try again...
Are you saying that the only people who aren't going to accept the Bible are unbelievers? Well, yes...but at the same time, you could start out a believer and then not accept the bible...thus becoming an unbeliever.
I was a believer, and then I found fault with the bible. So to say that the only people who will agree that the bible is false are unbelievers is wrong...unless you're saying that the second they find fault with the bible they become unbelievers?
And then we have to look at the word 'believer'. I assume you mean 'believers in Christianity'. Because, strictly speaking, Muslims and Jews are 'believers' and they don't necessarily agree that the bible is true.
So my answer, I suppose, is no. The 'only' people who agree on the truth or untruth of the bible won't fall into your simple categories.
morsecode said: "So my answer, I suppose, is no. The 'only' people who agree on the truth or untruth of the bible won't fall into your simple categories."
Well, then, you yourself just proved the truth and trustworthiness of the Bible:
(What agreement does he that believes have with an unbeliever? (2Cor 6:15)
Let your communication be, Yes, yes; No, no: for whatsoever is more than these comes from evil.
(Mat 5:37))
It should probably read more accurately "Never think about your answers, only say yes or no...thought only leads to evil."
You believe that. I hope it makes you happy, I really do.
morsecode said: "You believe that. I hope it makes you happy, I really do."
No, you don't. Just be honest. It's the rational thing to do.
I was being honest. I do honestly hope that your beliefs bring you happiness and contentedness in your life.
I express incredulity, because I can't understand how you can believe things without evidence. But if you can, all the more power to you.
That being said, if you try to force your beliefs on others, my positive wishes for you are retracted.
Otherwise, cheers.
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